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《踪迹》: 如果艺术不创新就没意思了,
我喜欢做点我认为有意思的事。
<Whereabouts>：Without creation, art is boring.
I think I would do some things I love.
王皆个展《踪迹》将于2013年5月1日至2013年5月28日在798艺术区HIHEY艺术中心展出，开战前，99艺术网在艺术家工作室对艺术家和策展人牛慧明进行了专访。
99ys.com had an exclusive interview with the artist and curator NIU Huiming before
WANG Jie’s individual exhibition Whereabouts displayed in HIHEY Art Center of 798
Art District.
本次展览展出了艺术家用《金刚经》刻印而印出的一系列作品，这些作品的创作过程十分耗时，需要投注很大的精力。每一种创作方式背后都有艺术家独特的创作理念和表的诉求，都有艺术家对生活某一面的敏锐感受。刚见到王皆，你会立刻感受到艺术家的放和坦率，但到了工作室，你会更家了解艺术家内心细腻的一面。一个不经意看似随意摆放的小物件，当你留意，你会发现原来它是如此精致和特别，也许后面有一个不寻常的故事。这时，你也许就会明白艺术家为何能如此耐心地做“细活”了。这些“细活”的每一步，每一处都渗透了艺术家对现代人们生存环境的思考，对“真实的生活和存在”的探求，而这些正是处于虚幻景象包围中的现代人难以发现的。
A series of displayed works are made by the stamps of the Diamond Sutra, which
needed a great deal of time and energy. The unique creative ideas and expressions
of aspirations of artists were hidden in every creative method, containing their
acumen feelings towards one aspect of life. The first sight of WANG Jie occurred to
you to think of relaxation and candidness; while the first step into his office struck
sensibility of his mind. A randomly placed tiny object coming to your notice enabled
you to discover its exquisiteness and uniqueness, perhaps an unusual story. At that
time, you might understand why artists could patiently finish their precise jobs. Every
step of the precise jobs was penetrated their thinking on modern people’s living
environment and explorations of real life and existence which were difficult to find
for modern people surrounded by illusions.
99艺术网：《金刚经》和这些作品里的名人有什么关系？
99ys.com: What’s the relation between the Diamond Sutra and the celebrities in
these works?
王皆：很多人都问我作品、人物和《金刚经》的关系，这是一个非常复杂的事情，涉及一个个人阅读的问题。我刻《金刚经》，完全是一个突发奇想，这是一种行为活动。《金刚经》非常有意思，文本阅读很难。《金刚经》是一个故事，这个故事演绎出来很多文本性的一些思考，它主要讲的问题是“无相”，我们看到的东西是事实的本质吗？如果我们看到的东西不是事实的本质，我们是否能“放下”？说的就是这么回事，这是我读《金刚经》的一个感受。
WANG Jie: Many people wondered about the relation among works, characters and
the Diamond Sutra, which is very complex and involved the understandings of
everyone. My carvings of the Diamond Sutra was completely an extraordinary
thought and a practice. Interesting as the Diamond Sutra, but it was difficult to
understand. As a story, the Diamond Sutra generated much textual thinking which
was centralized on non-Being. Is what we see the fundamentals of the fact? If not, can
we lay down? That’s my thinking about the Diamond Sutra.
99艺术网：这就是为什么印的都是名人，不是普通人的原因吧？名人充斥着日常人的视线，其实代表的是一种媒体的普遍性，现在网络、电视等媒体铺天盖地，但很多事是无法知道真相的。
99ys.com: That’s why your carvings are celebrities instead of ordinary people. What
ordinary people see is full of these celebrities, thus it’s a popularity of media. Our life
is thick with the Internet, TV and so on, but we have no access to the truth.
王皆：基本上是这个概念。
WANG Jie: That’s right.
99艺术网：你刻的人，大家都知道，很有名，但是很多人其实是看不清楚这个人物的，其实也不知道他到底怎么回事，反正每天到处都是他的图像。
99ys.com: The persons you carved enjoy high reputation, however many fail to
recognize them. After all his or her image is everywhere.
王皆：尤其范冰冰我真的不知道，我觉得范冰冰到底演过什么，天天在杂志上出现，已经视觉疲劳了，但是我觉得她的价值是什么？她的价值对我来说就是把她印出来，我天天见她没有办法，老百姓都认识，就把她印一个吧。
WANG Jie: Especially Fan Bingbing (Chinese actress). I am confused about her
plays. She is always in the magazine, which causes eye fatigue. However, what’s
my opinion of her? For me, her values stimulate myself to carve a stamp. I watch her
photos everyday and know her popularity, thus I carve one for her.
99艺术网：你说的关系到很重要的一点，就是媒体图像的真实性这个问题。你突出的已经不是《金刚经》了，就是真实和虚幻的矛盾。可为什么有的人物刻印的字比较清楚，有的把字印虚呢？
99ys.com: One of your points is the reality of media images. Your key doesn’t lie in
the Diamond Sutra but the confrontation between reality and illusions.
王皆：但是政治人物和网络人物是非常清楚的，我更喜欢把《金刚经》政治人物印得人也清楚、字也清楚。我对政治人物印《金刚经》，对他们还有点儿期盼，从艺术家内心来说，你领导人物得普渡众生，有点儿作为。做经济人物根本没有这个心态，就印虚了。
WANG Jie: But my images of political figures and celebrities are clear. I prefer
printing the images of political figures and characters clearly. I have some
expectations of those printed with the Diamond Sutra. As an artist, leaders should
enhance people’s living standard and be effective. A specialist in economy may not
pursue the idea so that I just make out a vague figure for them.
牛慧明：还有一个是他基本上电脑很少上，基本不上网。现在我们年轻人大部分信息基本上都来自于网络，每天早晨一打开电脑全是网络信息，但他基本上很少上网，但这个作品里边反映出来的东西和网络上这些信息是完全吻合的，这个也很有意思。
NIU Huiming: Also he seldom uses computer, and merely surf the Internet. Now most
information acquired by our youth comes from the Internet. Every morning, we turn on
the computer and will see all the Internet information. But he doesn’t. The reflections of
this work are consistent with the Internet information, which is also interesting.
王皆：这个是经验，因为我毕竟是这么大岁数的人了，对社会传播的敏感性非常强，比如我不愿意接触的也许是我关注的东西。
WANG Jie: That’s experience. Have I lived for so many years, and I’m strongly
sensitive to social communications. For example, what I’m not willing to contact
maybe what I’m watching.
99艺术网：中国人和外国人印的方式都不一样。
99ys.com: The carving me varies from Chinese to foreign people.
王皆：每个政治人物都不一样，有一些政治人物像奥巴马、胡锦涛非常清晰，卡扎非就虚幻。本来我想再印一张卡扎非，后我想这个大概就是我心目中的卡扎非，别动他了。
WANG Jie: Every political figure is different, some are pretty clear, like Obama and
HU Jintao, while some are vague, like Gaddafi. Actually I would like to print one more
for him, but this one fulfilled my imaginations so I give up.
99艺术网：印的中国人的颜色就比较深，外国人就比较浅，感觉就是你对自己周围一种生存环境的那种真实感觉。
99ys.com: The color of printed Chinese is darker and foreigners are lighter, which is
your true feelings about your living environment.
牛慧明：这是一个潜意识。
NIU Huiming: That’s subconscious.
王皆：潜意识，但是艺术家的潜意识真在他的艺术品中能够出现。
WANG Jie: Subconscious, however, the subconscious of artists could appear in his
works.
牛慧明：我一直理解艺术家本身他们做的是一种自然状态下的表达，他所反映出来的东西，可能就是一种本能的东西，因为艺术家对社会事物非常敏感，本能反映出来的可能是我们大众生活中所面临的问题和焦点的东西。
NIU Huiming: I always aware that what the artists do is the expression of their real
states. Thanks to their pretty sensitivities of social affairs, their reflections could be
the instinct that may reflect the problems we face and the focus of the mass.
99艺术网：现在很多艺术都哲学化，其实还是有点儿虚的。感觉你的作品强调体验。一个艺术家，把你体验到的东西做出来就行了，剩下的就交给理论家吧。
99ys.com: Now many arts are philosophized with little vagueness. I think your works
stress on experience. An artist transforms his experience to works, theorists interpret
these works.
王皆：要各做各的事。用文本诠释自己的视觉作品我觉得有点像阿Q。我记得美国有一个艺术家说了一句话，‘美’和‘美学’就像‘鸟’和‘鸟学’是两回事。做画和哲学也是两回事。
99ys.com: We finish our own parts. I think that interpretations of my own visual arts
through the texture are like self-comforting. One American artist had put it, beauty and
aesthetics, birds and ornithology, were different. Accordingly, painting and philosophy
are two things
99艺术网：你虽然现在在郊外，其实你的作品很多方面和市区的生活很相关的，只不过说很多人麻木了，但是你可能对这些东西更加敏感，其实这些在我们生活中也是一个很焦点的问题，但是我们不清楚，整天在耳边眼前的事情，我们就会忘掉它们的存在。
99ys.com: Though living in suburban, many aspects of your works are associated
with the life of urban. Many feels blunt, but you are more sensitive, which is also a
focus of our life. We are not clear, but will leave those existing behinds.
牛慧明：没有他那种敏感，也不会想这些人物，在每天的新闻里都出现，或者怎么样，对于咱们来说这也只是一个新闻而已。
NIU Huiming: I’m not as sensitive as him, I won’t think of these figures and their
activities appearing in everyday news. For us, they are merely news.
99艺术网：不想涉及哲学，其实这些作品已经涉及了哲学。
99ys.com: You hoped your works didn’t concern philosophy, but some did.
王皆：我是绝对凭着我的感觉，凭着我自己的真实体验去发现。
WANG Jie: I finish my works by my complete feelings. With my true experience, I
discover my feelings.
99艺术网：印那些中外政治人物，用《金刚经》其实就涉及了普世价值观。
99ys.com: I printed those Chinese and foreign political figures with the stamps of
the Diamond Sutra, which concerns universal values.
王皆：对。
WANG Jie: Yes.
牛慧明：这个里边说到信仰，也可以聊聊。比如说为什么中国有这么多明星，就是刚才你说到的经济人物，就像马云，就非常典型，有点儿像是中国人信仰的一个人，像现在经济里边的一个神一样，比如股神巴菲特。
NIU Huiming: We could also talk about the belief of the works. For example, why there
are so many stars in China, like Jack Ma, a typical figure in economy who you just
mentioned. He seems to be a target who Chinese admire. Another is Warren Bafitte,
an economic legendary.
王皆：我认为信仰是这样的，我真的是刻《金刚经》时才知道有信仰的，信仰是什么呢？就是你维持你做人的一个尊严，非常简单，所有的信仰就是维持你做人的尊严，你要奉行一个在信仰下的行动准则，这是最主要的。我觉得其他的这个主义、那个主义能不能成为信仰，那可以成为学说，成为不了信仰，信仰需要有一套完整的方法，非常理性的方法，让你用身心靠近它、约束自己。佛教的宗旨非常有意思，“诸善奉行，诸恶莫做”，就是别做恶事，做好事，这是一个前提，但是这个前提任何人都会说，肯定是好事要做，坏事别做，但是怎么去做好事，怎么不做坏事，这个难度大了，这个不是一般人能解决的一个问题，尤其在现代社会，实行起来非常难的。所以说佛教是一个知识，所有的知识都是知行合一，知道它，还要行动，佛教有一套很好的方法，所谓的戒律，是来约束你的行动的，但是这个戒律并不是佛教中最重要的东西，佛教中知行合一讲戒、定、慧，你有了这个戒律能守住自己就能获得身心的释放，所以叫戒、定、慧，这个非常有意思，难度也非常大。我自己因为读《金刚经》而看了很多文献，我觉得它能守护你，使你知道这个事情应该怎么做，不应该怎么做，你不断地坚持这个也挺难的，它实际上让你练会一个你的行为模式、行动模式，这个东西不好练，你要坚持，坚持地练时会发现你的身心还会轻松的，这个非常有意思的，所以佛教是我的一个信仰，但是谈这个不是我的专长。
WANG Jie: My opinion about belief is that: My awareness of beliefs struck me the
moment I am carving the Diamond Sutra. What it is? That’s your sustaining the
dignity. Simply, all the beliefs are to maintain your dignity, to enable you to behave
under the code of belief. That’s the key. I argue that various doctrines can be
philosophies but beliefs. A complete and rational set of methods consist of belief
that attracts and constrains yourself. The philosophy of Buddhism is meaningful. That
do all the good practices and abandon all the evils represents a prerequisite that we
should eschew evil, and do good. That’s a common practice. But how to do good
and how not to do evils are tough questions for the mass. Especially in modern
society, the practice is very hard. Therefore, Buddhism is philosophy. All
philosophies are that knowledge and actions should be hand in hand. We should
talk the talk and walk the walk. Commandment is an effective method, which
constrains your actions and is not the most important. In Buddhism, its unity of
theory and practice stresses Precepts,Concentration and Wisdom so as to maintain
your dignity and gain relief. Therefore, they are called Precepts, Concentration
and Wisdom, considerably meaningful and tough. Because of readin the Diamond
Sutra, I read more papers. I think it will protect you and guide you to do the good
practices instead of the evil. It’s hard for you to stick to the doctrines, which cultivates
the mode of behaviors and actions actually. It takes efforts so you have to hold on
during which you will feel relaxation mentally and physically. It’s so interesting that
Buddhism is one of my belief. But I’m not an expert of Buddhism.
99艺术网：你印这些政治名人，是希望他们有一些行动力和约束力吗？比如说对别的国家不要发动暴力战争，对行动要有约束。还有一个问题就是，不管是哪个国家的，我们都有一个共同的理想，我们必须得用行动力来建这个共同理想。你特别强调行动力。
99ys.com: Your printings of these political celebrities are your yearnings that they
should be able to have power of effective actions and constraint? For example, you
hope that they won’t wage violent wars against other countries and constraint their
actions? Another question is that no matter what countries, we share common vision
which we should build up with power of effective actions. You’ve been particular
concerned with the power.
王皆：这个行动能守护自己，不然就乱套了。
WANG Jie: The action could guard oneself, otherwise everything will be in a muddle.
99艺术网：感觉你这些作品在告诉大家现在人人都得念《金刚经》。
99ys.com: I think that your works encourage all of us to read the Diamond Sutra.
王皆：我希望这样想。
WANG Jie: I hope so.
99艺术网：做这些作品，刻印这些字很辛苦吧？
99ys.com: To finish these works, carving must be hard?
王皆：工作是挺煎熬的事，政治人物整个也做得非常慢，做了将近两年，做一幅非常缓慢。我做这个作品一个字一个字地刻。从最早的甲骨文到中国字形完全成熟时的汉篆，这一阶段里的书体在我作品里边都有，这个过程非常有意思。刻的时候是那样想，刻完以后把这事全忘了，当然现在聊的时候突然又想起来了。
WANG Jie: Working is terribly suffering. The process of whole political figure is pretty
slow, taking nearly two years for one figure. One by one, I carved every stamp of every
work including the earliest inscriptions on oracle bones to the Zhuan characters in the
Han Dynasty, a completely mature character. My works cover all styles of characters
in this period. The process is very worthy. After carving, I left all my thoughts at that
moment behind, now they suddenly occur to me.
99艺术网：通过这个又传播了一下中国传统的文字美。
99ys.com: You’ve propagated traditional beauty of Chinese characters though your
carvings.
王皆：有时候有一些人问我，我突然想起这个事讲讲，最后人家把《金刚经》的事忘了，把字库的事想起来了。
WANG Jie: Sometimes I was asked about the stamps and occurred to my carving. At last he or she forgot the Diamond of Sutra and thought of the tank of characters
99艺术网：一个作品有很多面，不一定一面，艺术家的想法是一面，做的时候又有一个想法，这是一个生发的过程，不是刚开始固定什么就是什么。
99ys.com: Many aspects consist a work instead of one. The idea of an artist is one of
them who would have another one while finishing. It’s a developing process, which the
beginning differs from the ending.
王皆：这就是艺术创作的过程。
WANG Jie: It is the process of art creation.
牛慧明：这个展览完了以后就对大家有了一个比较完整的交待。
NIU Huiming: People will have a clear picture after the exhibition.
王皆：做了一个东西大家看一看，将来还得变。如果艺术不创新就没意思了。我喜欢做点我认为有意思的事。
WANG Jie: I finish my works for show which will change in the future. Without creation,
art is boring. I think I would do some things I love.
《99艺术网》2013年4月
<99ys.com> interview, April 2013
翻译：BYICAA翻译之家 柯杨茗
Translation: Translators of BYICAA Yangming KE
